Commons debate in May 1961 on UK position vis-a-vis the Franco regime

At the end of May 1961 the UK Opposition criticized the Home Secretary for his remarks, made in Madrid, on the Spanish government and regime.

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Source: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1961-05-30/debates/c2151f1b-8e87-4b1a-b41d-e96d634a1ca4/Spain(HomeSecretarySSpeech)

Spain (Home Secretary's Speech)

Volume 641: debated on Tuesday 30 May 1961

40. Mr. Healey 

asked the Prime Minister  (Harold Macmillan) whether the speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid on relations with Spain, as reported in an official communiqué of the Spanish Government, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

41. Mr. Jeger

asked the Prime Minister whether the speech by the Secretary of State for the Home Department [Richard "Rab" Butler] in Madrid on Sunday, 21st May, about relations with Spain, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

42. Mr. Zilliacus

asked the Prime Minister whether the speech made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid on 22nd May, about Spain's relations with the western world, represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

43. Mr. Brockway 

asked the Prime Minister if the speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department about relations with Spain, at a dinner given by Señor Castiella, the Spanish Foreign Minister, in Madrid, as released by the Spanish Ministry of Information, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

 

44. Mr. Mendelson

asked the Prime Minister whether the speech by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid on 20th May, about relations with Spain, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

45. Mr. Driberg

asked the Prime Minister if the speech made in Madrid by the Secretary of Sate for the Home Department concerning Spain's relations with the western world represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

46. Mr. Dodds 

asked the Prime Minister if the recent speech by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid, concerning Spain's relations with the West, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

47. Mr. Harold Davies

asked the Prime Minister if the speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid, confirmed by the British Embassy in Madrid, concerning Spain's relations with the western world, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

48. Mr. W. Hamilton

asked the Prime Minister if the speech made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid on Monday, 22nd May, about relations with Spain, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

49. Mr. R. Edwards

asked the Prime Minister whether the speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid about relations with Spain, reported in an official communiqué by the Spanish Government, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

50. Mr. Wade

asked the Prime Minister whether the speech made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid on 21st May, 1961, represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

51. Mr. Dugdale 

asked the Prime Minister whether the recent speech made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in Madrid concerning relations with Spain represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

 

The Prime Minister

My right hon. Friend's remarks, which were made informally at a private occasion, are in accord with Her Majesty's Government's policy of working for friendly relations between Spain and other Western countries.

Mr. Healey

Is the Prime Minister aware that his explanation, such as it is, will not be considered satisfactory by very large numbers of people to whom the Home Secretary's remarks have caused concern? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Home Secretary's words inevitably revive suspicion that Her Majesty's Government are planning to sponsor the admission of Franco-Spain into N.A.T.O.? Would the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity of formally denying that Her Majesty's Government have any such intention, in view of the fact that such a step would undermine support for the alliance in wide sections of public opinion throughout Western Europe? Further, if the Home Secretary's remarks were of a personal and private nature, is it really appropriate that the Home Secretary should barge into such a delicate issue as this on the eve of an official visit by the Foreign Secretary to Spain? Would it not be equally appropriate for the Foreign Secretary at a private dinner in Spain tonight to announce support for flogging in Britain.

 

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman has asked so many questions that I hope he will forgive me if I miss trying to answer them all. With regard to the first, whether my reply has or has not the general support of the country, I think it will have. These things are decided from time to time every four or five years, and I am not at all unhappy about what the country will say about our conduct, including my right hon. Friend's. With regard to the second question, my right hon. Friend did not, of course, mention the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. The question of Spanish membership is not before the Organisation. In addition, it might comfort the hon. Member to know that the Spanish Foreign Minister has publicly stated several times and recently repeated that Spain has never applied directly or indirectly or made any approach to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and has no intention of doing so.

 

Mr. Gaitskell

Would the Prime Minister agree that the Home Secretary's speech was nevertheless released to the Spanish Press by the Spanish Ministry of Information? Can he say whether the release was agreed by the Home Secretary, and is he aware that the Economist described the visit in these terms:

"The release was made after a proper, even generous, consultation. Mr. Butler, as a matter of fact, did not say a shade less than was reported; he said a good deal more. The Spanish listeners did not imagine that Mr. Butler was supporting the entry of Spain into Nato; they heard him say it."

Is it the case that the right hon. Gentleman did say that or not?

 

The Prime Minister

My right hon. Friend assures me that statement is completely incorrect. He made no reference of any kind to N.A.T.O. Whether a representative of the Economist was present at the dinner, I do not know. It was quite a small dinner. There was no question of this at all. With regard to publication, I can see no objection to the publication of a summary of his remarks, since they were in accord with Her Majesty's Government's policy.

 

Mr. Gaitskell

Did the Home Secretary agree to that summary or not? Is the Prime Minister aware that, whether the Economist was present or not, a great many people seem to have heard what was said at the dinner?

 

The Prime Minister

Yes, but that is no reason for saying untruthfully what was not said. 

 

Mr. Gaitskell

Would the Prime Minister answer my earlier question? Was the release agreed to by the Home Secretary or not?

 

The Prime Minister

The text of the release was not seen and was not agreed to by my right hon. Friend who went off next day for his holiday, but it was understood between the Embassy and the Spanish Government that a summary of the remarks would be published.

 

Mr. Jeger

Is the Prime Minister aware that his right hon. Friend the liberal-minded Home Secretary is widely reported as having said that Spain represents an essential factor for the West? Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly explain which peculiarity of Fascist dictatorship is lacking in the West at the moment?

 

The Prime Minister

There are other traditions of the Spanish people which are great traditions, including, among others, being a great Christian country.

Mr. Zilliacus

As the Home Secretary's statement included the assertion that Spain should be fully integrated into the West, would the Prime Minister explain what that means? Does it mean N.A.T.O. or the Common Market, or both? Further, is the Prime Minister aware that the policy of trying to use Fascist régimes as bulwarks against Communism helped to bring on the Second World War, and is he aware that the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary have a very evil record as pro-Fascist appeasers? Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the Government are not attempting that policy again by smuggling Franco into N.A.T.O. by the back door?

 

The Prime Minister

I am not at all surprised at the hon. Member's supplementary question. He must not attempt to play out time. I must be given a chance of answering and I have only half a minute. Almost everything that the hon. Member has said I know he holds very strong views about. All I was saying is that there were examples in the last few years of closer work between the Spanish Government and people and our own. I will give two. Her Majesty's Government supported Spain's entry into the United Nations. When I was Chancellor of the Exchequer the preliminary steps were taken, and I think finally made, for Spain's entry into the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation. I think that both those were good moves.

 

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Brockway.

Mr. Iremonger

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Might I draw your attention to the fact that hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House have been rising—

Mr. Manuel

Hon. Gentlemen opposite have not tabled any of these Questions.

Mr. Iremonger

—and to the fact that hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House have a very different attitude from that of hon. Gentlemen opposite?

 

Mr. Speaker

Hon. Members cannot develop views on points of order. What is happening at the moment is that I am endeavouring to allow hon. Members who had Questions on the Order Paper to ask supplementary questions.

 

Mr. Brockway

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, whether it is a majority or a minority of our people, a very large number of our people are gravely concerned about the statement which the Home Secretary is reported to have made? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, a very large proportion. Does he regard this as a proper method by which a statement of this character should be made—in the form of incidental remarks at a private meeting? Does it not mean that the whole basis of Western democracy will be denied if we are going to welcome the co-operation of a dictatorship?

 

The Prime Minister

I think we welcome all steps which make countries get on better together, even though they have Governments of which we may disapprove. For instance, I have done my best to get better relations with the Communist countries.

 

Mr. Mendelson

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us who support the alliance because we look upon it as a defensive alliance for democracy would find it completely unsupportable were Fascist Spain allowed to enter N.A.T.O.? Will he give the House a categorical assurance that Her Majesty's Government will oppose any application that may be made on behalf of Spain?

 

The Prime Minister

The question does not arise because the Spanish Government have not the slightest intention of applying.

 

Mr. Driberg

Would the Prime Minister consider publishing in HANSARD not merely a summary but the full text of the Home Secretary's remarks? Would he also say what exactly was meant—I am sorry if right hon. Gentlemen think this is so funny; it is rather a serious matter to some of us—if N.A.T.O. has nothing to do with it, by such a phrase as "the full incorporation of Spain in the Western world"? Does the right hon. Gentleman regard Spain as part of what he calls the free world? 

 

The Prime Minister

With regard to the first part of the supplementary question—I have already dealt with the others—I am afraid that it would not be possible to publish the text, because I am told that it does not exist.

 

Mr. Driberg

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the other questions. 

 

Mr. Cooper

Is my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister aware that he need not make any apology to the House of the country for the remarks of the Home Secretary, which broadly have the support of the people of this country? Can my right hon. Friend tell the House why it appears in some quarters to be wrong for Spain to be part of the Western world but proper for Red China to be part of the greater United Nations organisation?

 

The Prime Minister

I really think that rather more has been made of this incident than it justifies. I think that the whole thing is rather a storm in a teacup. My right hon. Friend went to a dinner and made a few friendly observations, a summary of which was then published. What the Opposition are trying to do is what all Oppositions do. They are trying to turn this into a lurid and dramatic tale. The public is already bored with the whole thing.

 

Mr. Dodds

As it is obvious that better relations are contemplated, will the Prime Minister bear in mind that Spain has behaved and is behaving in a very shabby way towards a most loyal part of the British Commonwealth—Gibraltar? Is he not aware of the restrictions against labour, commerce, sporting and cultural relations? Does he not know that the one agreement which was made last year was a crafty arrangement which allowed Gibraltarians to spend their money in Spain but did not allow visitors, Spanish or any others, into Gibraltar? Will he give an undertaking that there is to be no improvement until this very loyal community of the British Commonwealth is treated in the way we would want to be treated by Spain?

 

The Prime Minister

I have a great deal of sympathy on this matter. We have made efforts to improve the relations in respect of Gibraltar. Some of the restrictions were removed last year, and there has, I think, been a general improvement recently. But I do not see how we are going to make progress in this matter and influence the Spanish Government except by making an effort to get on more friendly terms.

 

Mr. J. Harvey

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that many of us find it very difficult to understand why it should be considered more permissible to forgive and forget what happened in Hungary five years ago than it is to forgive and forget what happened in Spain nearly a generation ago? Might I further ask my right hon. Friend whether he does not agree that it would help more to speed up the tempo of liberalisation in Spain, which we all desire to see, if there could be a cessation of the hate campaign that seems for some reason or other still to continue on the Opposition benches?

 

The Prime Minister

I agree with my hon. Friend. What we want to try to do is to improve our relations with all countries, including Spain. We have our own feelings, our own sentiments and our own beliefs, but I do not think that we are likely to make progress by trying to exacerbate the differences between countries. Rather, we should, in spite of them, try to establish friendly relations. That applies to all countries.

 

Mr. Hamilton

Was the Prime Minister aware that that speech was going to be made before it was made? Can he for the purposes of the record define what he means by "Christianity", or does he agree with the former Colonial Secretary that Franco is a "gallant Christian gentleman?"

 

Sir K. Pickthorn

Oh, shut up.

 

The Prime Minister

With regard to the—

 

Mr. Hamilton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I distinctly heard an hon. Gentleman opposite say "shut up". If he cares to see me outside I will shut him up.

 

Hon. Members

Oh. 

 

Mr. Speaker

As far as I remember, the Prime Minister was in the course of answering a question. I have quite forgotten what the question was, but I think that was the position.

 

Hon. Members

Answer.

 

Mr. Hamilton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I asked a supplementary question, and I think I should be entitled to a reply. I asked originally whether the Prime Minister knew that the speech was going to be made and whether he knew of the contents.

 

The Prime Minister

The hon. Gentleman has now withdrawn the second half of his question, which I thought to be both irrelevant and offensive. With regard to the first part, I understand that my right hon. Friend was called upon to speak. I said that I could not publish the text, because he had lost the menu card on which he had scribbled a few notes. He spoke extempore and made a few friendly observations, and hence all this trouble.

 

Mr. R. Edwards

The Prime Minister has just stated that Spain is a great Christian country. Has he read the petition to Franco sent by 350 Catholic priests in Spain protesting about the torture of Catholic citizens? Would not he agree that the most certain way of bringing Spain into the community of nations would be for Franco to declare a political amnesty and allow free institutions to develop?

 

The Prime Minister

I do not disagree with that, but these are criticisms of the Spanish Government and I was referring to the Spanish people as a whole. I do not understand why, if it is thought that we can perhaps bring some influence to bear on Communist countries by improving our relations with them—perhaps improving their conduct—it should be absolutely wrong to try to get friendly relations with and to bring influence to bear on non-Communist countries which happen to be part of the general European tradition.

 

Mr. Iremonger

Will my right hon. Friend take note of but not be unduly impressed by the pathological hysteria of the Bourbons opposite who have forgotten nothing and learnt nothing?

 

Mr. Wade

Would not the Prime Minister agree that the conflict in the world today is primarily ideological? That being so, would not he also agree that any speech made by a British Minister which, by implication, suggests that Britain is lending her support to a country which is, unfortunately, in many respects as illiberal as Communist countries may do much greater harm than any benefit to be derived militarily or economically? Are we not being dangerously cynical in expressing support for the dictators of Portugal and Spain?

 

The Prime Minister

All these considerations are very relevant and show the importance of keeping a balanced approach to this and to other problems. 

 

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